Author Archive
Quebec Student Protests
March 25, 2012. Thousands march in Montreal in protest of Bill 78, a Quebec law designed to crack down on street protests. I doubt if you will see any masks in this crowd.
Note: Bill 78 was passed on May 18. For a general discussion of the timelines and events, the follow Wiki links is recommended by a FB friend in Montreal, Gilles Arpin: BILL 78
Comments
It was the Quebec student protests that spurred me to get busy and write the Prague travel post (Link). This was mainly because I felt the people of the Czech Republic and other former satellite states of the Soviet Union (as with those in Egypt, Libya, Syria and others) demonstrate a dogged determination to change their world for the better. In Eastern Europe, nearly 80 years of death and destruction were visited upon those Easter Block countries before peaceful co-existence became a real possibility. (Reference the Prague post for more details). For Africa as well as other countries of the world, it remains a work in progress. Now, back to Canada.
While the vast majority of Canadians, both young and old, demonstrate a strength of character that continues to help shape a peaceful, productive society, a few, shall we say a privileged few, take much for granted. Perhaps, in many ways, I do the same thing with my Pension Plan, Health Care and general services that provides me with a standard of living that is second to none in the world.
Recently, in Quebec, one small but vocal group of University students suggested their fragile, privileged world would fall apart if the Government applied a $325.00 per year increase in student fees in each of the next five years. The protest began with a small degree of public support, but that turned sour when masked intruders invaded University classrooms in an attempt to intimidate teachers, students and staff. On the streets, mask thugs usurped the peaceful intentions of the majority of protesting students.
Those who know me or have read some of the editorials on this blog, know I am a staunch advocate, both of the rule of law but also of vigorously protecting civil liberties and freedoms entrenched within the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Our Charter is a document for which many people around would be willing to forfiet their lives and, in many cases, thousands have already paid that ultimate price. Each day in Libya, Syria and Egypt we seen hundreds seeking just a small measure of the freedoms we enjoy.
That challenge in Canada is that infringments of our Charter by various levels of government are often let to slip by with nary a word of protest. An example was the mass arrests that took place at the Toronto G20. All three levels of government as well as three levels of police (Local, Provincial and Federal), not only acted badly, but, in several cases, committed criminal offences for which they will likely walk away scott free.
Photo (Web): Police car on Queens Street West was left to burn, then smolder for hours as the media played and replayed the clip.
From the moment marked police cars were strategically placed within the protest zone, then left to burn for media camera’s, the stage was set for mass arrests that included hundreds of well intentioned protestors. The result, a significant percentage of the Canadian public was justifiably outraged. Since that time little has been done to properly review these matters and bring the culprits, particularly the police, before the courts.
In Vancouver on the other hand, the public overwhelmingly supported the police in the actions taken to quell the hockey riots and that support has continued as the worst perpetrators are being identified and brought before the courts. I do not recall one police officer being accused of a criminal offence or even abuse of power.
While police cars in Vancouver were also burned, the situation evolved so quickly, police had little chance to protect the cars as roaming crowds outnumbered them at least 1000 to 1 as there had been no real expectation (perhaps that was their greatest error) that rioting would erupt. I am still amazed at how quickly and efficiently the police managed to bring that very dangerous situation under control without loss of life or serious injury.
The student protests in Quebec are an entirely different story. While the students initially had what they felt were legitimate concerns (student fees), the public turned solidly against them after the invasions and the actions of masked protestors.
Photo: Masked individuals marched through Montreal University distrupting classes and threatening students. Can you imagine how you would feel if these thugs invaded your study or work-place. With scenes likes this, it was easy to understand why action of some sort was needed.
The Government, sensing they had gained full public support and the upper hand, introduced Bill 78, which, as it turned out, had a completely unexpected outcome. Both public and the students massively attacked the intent of the Bill, which was, in effect, to curtail public protest. The whole issue suddenly switched from being about student fees to one of civil liberties and freedom.
While very few have sympathy for masked protestors (they were responsible for most of the damage and disruption), no one thinks the government response will do anything other than push more protesters onto the streets, just as we have witnessed over the past few days. We now see mom and dad, old and young now taking to the streets in the thousands with pots and pans in hand. The original student protests have been relegated to a non-event except in the hands of the media and a few diehard students.
A cynical person might suggest it would have been an ideal for the Montreal Police to strategically place a few unprotected, marked police cars along known protest routes and wait for nature to take it’s course. A burning police car and a couple of masked men jumping on the roof could certainly become a defining moment as it was in Toronto.
A friend of mine in Quebec predicts that by mid-summer, if the Government does not find a way to maneuver out of this situation, if police continue to make mass arrests and if the students do not back off, it will eventually take the army to restore order. Some may remember the Front de liberation du Quebec (FLQ) and the crisis of October 1970. At that time civil liberties were suspended across Canada and police given massive powers to arrest and detain. No one wants a repeat of that sad month in Canadian legal history.
Photo (Web): Peaceful, but now illegal, ‘pots and pans’ protest moves along Bernard Street in Montreal. Such protests are taking place all over Montreal and Quebec.
As this matter has now evolved, I stand fully with the protestors on the issue of civil liberties and would be on my front law banging pots and pans (maybe I can start something here), not because I support a few spoiled students, but because of what the Quebec Government did in response. It demonstrates clearly how a Government can, with little thought for future consequences, can introduce legislation that goes against common sense. We have all watched as the Federal Government has doing the same thing for the past several months. In the long the Federal ruling party will most certainly pay a big price for the liberties they have taken with the Charter, just as will the Government of Quebec.
While I do not support civil disobedience or mass protests except in extreme circumstances, I would be much more concerned if no one in Quebec or the rest of Canada for that matter, took issue with the legislation as it stands. I would also be marching and banging a pot if I lived in that Province, but I don’t so the best I can do is write a short post that a few might read and reflect upon.
As for those Quebec students and their tuition fees – get back to class, find a better way to bring your concerns forcefully to the government and then get on with life. Save your energies for a real issue.
Harold
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Prague: At War and at Peace
Photo from Painting
View of the Charles Bridge looking toward the main city centre. Paintings, sketches and drawings, such as the one above, depict various scenes around the city. Many are the work of talented young people trying to make their way in life. For a small donation, the artist allows pictures to be taken.
What ever direction you might travel in Eastern Europe, a few days in Prague is a must. For Esther, Garth, Lynn and I, a four day extension of our Danube trip was barely enough, however we did manage to savour every last second. We would have gladly stayed for another week just to touch upon the many things that still awaited our eager senses but, alas, time (and booked flights) conspired against our wishes. For other travelers we highly recommend a minimum of one week, perhaps ten days if you can squeeze out the time. A three month stay in Prague and the surrounding country would be heaven.
As with many cities and countries in Eastern Europe emerging from thirty five years of war (World War I and II), then forty-one years of communism, peace comes with a cost, but that cost seems worth every penny in hard cash, blood, sweat and tears. Around the world we see these costs being paid everyday for a small taste of that elusive dream we call freedom. (Reference Footnote on Quebec Student Protests).
Photo (Web): This is typical of the foothill farm country through which we passed. Many of the farms along the highway had seen better times.
Our four hour bus trip from Passau, Germany then across the southern Republic, left no doubt this was a country once held by iron fists, first those of the Nazi’s during two World Wars, then during the decades of an equally brutal Soviet communist dictatorship. As we crossed the now open border from Germany, warnings were still in place advising tourists of the danger of land mines in a strip of ‘no man’s land’ between the two countries and at our one stop for refreshments at a small, remote service station, the feeling of being in another time and another place was clearly evident.
While the countryside was beautiful, much as it is in the foothills of Alberta, the mix of worn down buildings, old railway stations and broken shelters, serve as a reminder of those decades of death and brutal repression. A few stark examples of how ordinary people suffered; following the Nazi occupation, it is estimated over 155,000 persons of Jewish descent (86% of the population) died in the streets, at concentration camps or during ‘death marches’ that took place near the end of the war.
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Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada: Estate Property
Subdividable, Income Producing Property with a
CNLR seven well, Super Pad, Oil Lease
Expressions of Interest are invited for this
94.69 acre parcel of land.
Photo: Looking North along Hwy #897, the property begins on the left at the intersection of
Township Road #640. The subdividable acreage with seven oil wells is located close to the Municipal Airport and the City of Cold Lake.
(Reference maps and directions to the property are located in the footer)
Primrose Highway Property
Pt SW 1-64-3 W4
Municipal District of Bonnyville #87
Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada
The property was part of the original McNeill Family Homestead taken over as a tree-farm by our parents, Dave McNeill (1908-1965) and Laura Skarsen (McNeill) (Wheeler) (1918 – 2008), in the early-mid 1900s.
Dave and Laura were among the second wave of homesteaders in the Cold Lake area who helped to settle the land as they raised three children who later graduated from Cold Lake High School in the 1950s and 60s.
Individuals may be attracted to this property because it no only holds considerable wild life, it also has three active and four inactive income producing “in situ” oil wells on the property (leased by Canadian National Resources Limited, CNLR). The four inactive wells await an increase in oil prices. Over the past decade the property produced $75,000 in lease income. Property taxes (agricultural land) remain at $35.00 per year and there are no additional maintenance costs.
This acreage is located in one of the finest recreational and economic development areas of Canada’s bustling northwest and just 5 kilometers by modern paved highway from the City of Cold Lake, a rapidly growing community of 15,000 situated on the sandy shores of the deepest and best known lake in Alberta and Saskatchewan (Link Pictures of Cold Lake). Together the two western provinces are the fastest growing and most economically vibrant in Canada notwithstanding the current oil price crunch.
Local Area Map (left): The subject property is designated by the small red dot just South of Ethel Lake and East of Hilda Lake. The City of Cold Lake, which includes the Canadian Forces Base, is designated by the larger red area. Maps #3 and #4 inserted as footers, provide the specific location and travel distances from the City of Cold Lake.
While the area is known worldwide as being the southern heart of the Athabasca and Cold Lake Oil Sands production area, it is equally well known as a pristine wilderness, filled with freshwater lakes, streams and forests teeming with hundreds of species of fish, wildlife and birds. It is also on the northern migration route of one of the largest populations of water foul in North American.
Access to this wilderness area can be found as close as Marie Creek, an easy ten-minute walk (1.5 km) from the property. A short canoe ride down the creek will place the adventurer among colonies of Beaver as they cut trees, build dams and swim among bulrushes filled with hundreds of nesting songbirds and ducks. In the early spring, the creek is teeming with spawning Jackfish and year-round moose, deer, bear and other wildlife can be found in area forests.
Photo: From a family canoe adventure on the flooded Marie Creek. This photo was taken while standing on Highway #897. Link to the full story for a further description of the area.
The City of Cold Lake provides a full range of business and recreational services with two large, modern malls (photo below of the Tri-City Mall) that hold the usual array of national and international retail outlets. As well, numerous boutique speciality stores cater to individuals wishing to escape the mall scene.
The historic Cold Lake Marina (photo in the footer) provides full service for sports fishermen searching for giant trout and walleye and, as well, provides full service to recreational sailors and boaters.
In the winter a variety of sports opportunities is available including ice fishing, hunting, snowmobiling throughout the countryside and at the full-service ski facility at Kinosoo Ridge. The new Cold Lake Energy Centre recreation building provides service and entertainment equal to or better than that found any city across Canada.
The new regional hospital in Cold Lake Hospital is just 10 minutes from the property along the secondary road that runs by the Regional Airport (see maps below). Regular school bus service is provided along Highway #897.
At Canadian Forces, Base Cold Lake, Canada’s largest and busiest military base, military personnel and civilian workers provide year-round training in addition to hosting many NATO countries during the annual spring Maple Flag operation. A small section of CFB Cold Lake is dedicated to a commercial air terminal from which regularly scheduled flights is provided to Edmonton, Calgary and other key points in Alberta and Saskatchewan.
The area also hosts world-class oil production facilities that provide heavy demand for high paying professional, skilled and labour services. Rounding off the economy is a strong retail and service industry that feeds the local community. With a number of infrastructure developments both in progress and in the planning stage, it appears area growth will be maintained for many decades into the future.
Today, both the best of the past and present are available as the modern paved roads and two airports provide easy access to Edmonton and Calgary, at which International Airports connect Alberta and Canada with the world. As Cold Lake is at the end of the north-east highway line, one can then enter the Canadian northland which today remains much as it was in centuries past.
Further Property Description
This single parcel of the farm/development land is serviced by a Class 1 paved highway (#897) referred to as the Primrose Highway. It is fifteen minutes from the City Centre, five minutes from the Cold Lake Municipal Airport and ten minutes from the CFB Cold Lake, the largest military training base in Canada (see precise distances under Map #4 in the footer).
Well maintained gravel roads on the South and West boundaries provide ready access to three of the property borders and access to the North Side via the CNRL 20-acre lease. A small part of the property lies West of the North-South portion of Township Road #640.
Power, gas and telephone are easily accessed along the main highway and an extension power line runs along the south boundary road. See attached maps for property location.
The area along the Primrose Highway is now hosting mixed agricultural operations, hobby farms, country residential and recreational properties (photos in the footer). It is clean, quiet and offers easy access to a number of pristine freshwater lakes and streams such as English Bay, North Bay Recreational areas on Cold Lake, Marie Lake, Marie Creek, Ethel Lake, Hilda Lake, Wolf Lake and numerous others within minutes of the property. Other remote lakes and resorts may are easily accessed by float plane.
The energy firm, Canadian Natural Resources Limited (CNRL), a major player in the Oil Sands Development, leases the Northeast corner of the property where they have producing wells that are kept in immaculate condition. A 5-acre pad, now referred to as a “super pad” now hosts three producing wells and four further wells that await an increase in oil prices.
The highest and best use of the property would be with single family residences, continued as recreational property or as a hobby farm. While it is heavily treed (a mix of poplar and spruce) there is also some open pastureland. While the soil classification indicates there are limitations that restrict the capability to produce forage crops, improvement practices are feasible. At the current time Beaver Dams constructed on the property have led to some flooding, however, that would be rectified as soon as the dams were removed. One area trapper is currently permitted to trap beaver on the property as a means of control. There are no adverse easements or encroachments.
The potential for sub-division exists as permitted by the Municipal District of Bonnyville (#87) under the Land Use By-Law. Reference Agricultural Land Section #65.4, p. 38ff (LINK). Several small and one larger sub-division have been completed on neighbouring. 3 – 5-acre parcels in the area. These parcels were sold in the $90,000 to $100,000 range in 2010 and since then have increased in value. (reference development map #5).
Lots in the City of Cold Lake range from $150,000 (low end) and for larger area developments, acreages would run from $500,000 upward.
Whether you wish to build a multi-million dollar home or a log cabin retreat, this property provides ample value.
Expressions of Interest
For details on submitting a written Expressions of Interest contact the Executor by email at: harold@mcneillifestories.com.
Canadian Telephone: 250-889-1033 (Victoria, British Columbia, Canada)
The Expression of Interest is not a binding agreement on either party and is intended only to open dialogue regarding development opportunities and a possible sale/purchase agreement.
Agent contact is invited, however, there will be an expectation of the Agent having a specific offer against which a suggested finder’s fee for a confirmed sale would be made in a formal Offer to Purchase.
Other options exist.
Harold McNeill
Estate Executor
Below: Maps #1 and #2
Provincial/National Orientation
Below: Map #3
Subject property, named Skarsen L., marked in yellow
Below: Map #4
The general area of MD and City of Cold Lake
(travel distances below map)
Directions to property from the City of Cold Lake
From the intersection of Hwy #28 and #55, travel West for 8.2 km on Hwy #55 to the intersection of Hwy #897 (Primrose Highway). Turn right and travel North on Hwy #897 for 5 km. The property (in yellow) begins at the intersection with the gravel road (Township Road #640) and continues north along the left side of the Hwy #897 to the CNRL lease which marks the NE boundary).
The property is bounded by roads on three sides (Highway #897 (Green) and Gravel Roads (Red))
From the CFB Cold Lake rear gate, travel north for approximately 5 km. on Hwy #897 to Hwy #55, then through the intersection to continue North as noted above.
A secondary highway (running north of and parallel to Hwy #55, provides access to the Cold Lake Regional Airport (small aeroplane on the map and as footer below). This is the secondary road is also the shortest route to the Regional Hospital, Kinosoo Beach and the north end of the City of Cold Lake.
Aerial View (#5) With sub-divisions and topographical lines superimposed.
(see notes below)
Skarsen L., property begins north of Township Road #640 (under the words). Property sub-divided on the opposite corner includes two 3 acres and one 5 acre parcel. Further east, on the next quarter, is Country Residential (CR2) and north, across the Township Road from that parcel, are two further parcels, zoned CR1 and CR2 as well as one CR2 (not quite visible) in the top right corner of the map.
Sprinkled throughout the area are other 5 and 10 acre parcels.
Property Pictures
Looking across Hwy 897 and down gravel access road. The property begins on
the far right corner.
Photo: The south boundary gravel road turns north to run along part of the west boundary. If you look at Map #5 below, you will note a portion of the property has been sectioned off
on the left side of the road (perhaps 5-7 acres).
Photo: North-east corner of the property along Highway #897, shows the small
portion of land cleared in preparation for the Canadian Natural Resources Limited lease. (Checks are being made with CNLR to see if this access road is available to use for general use to access to the North side of the property)
Neighbourhood Properties in the Million Dollar Range
The Original Family Farm is now sold and a new house built on the property.
(Above Photo) This was part of the original W & L Skarsen farm where our mother and stepfather lived for nearly thirty years. The original house, built in the 1940’s and moved in the 1970’s, now sits behind this new home at the corner of Highway #55 and Hwy #897.
(Two Photos Below) This property now sits directly across from the property listed for sale. The driveway to the 20-acre CNLR (oil well section) sits directly across from the driveway to this property.
Other neighbouring properties are shown below.
Typical building site on various properties in the area.
Miscellaneous City and Area Photos
Cold Lake Marina
Evening scene looking over Kinosoo Beach
Cold Lake Regional Airport is 5 minutes south property (reference map inserts)
Additional photos in the Photo Album
attached to this post
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His Holiness, the Dalai Lama: An Open Letter
This photo provides a stark reminder of the challenges faced by Tibetans and how a few young Monks have sought to bring attention to the plight of their people. The letter that follows encourages His Holiness the Dalai Lamas to return to Tibet to stand with his people as others have done when their people were being oppressed and brutalized.
“Tibetan culture, religion and identity face “extinction” and (the) residents of Tibet (are) living in ‘hell on earth’.” A quote by the Dalai Lama made at the Dharmsala Conference, India, on March 11, 2009. (Reported by Emily Wax, Washington Post)
His Holiness, The Dalai Lama
May 11, 2012
Dear Holiness,
Re: Has the time come to go home and stand shoulder to shoulder with your people?
During your recent visit to Canada, I noted Prime Minister Harper warmly greeted you (photo left), but did so in a rather low key fashion. I suspect that was because he did not want to offend the Chinese Government as China has become an extremely important trading partner for all manner of Canadian resources, goods, and services. Your reception by other world leaders seems to follow the same general trend – respectful, but low key and not likely to influence China one way or the other regarding their harsh treatment of the people in Tibet.
I also note your status as a media darling has grown substantially in recent years and while you grant many interviews, those interviews must be closely scripted as I cannot remember hearing one hard question ever being asked of your Holiness. In a recent clip broadcast on a Canadian News Network station and in other interviews, the hosts were extremely deferential and never came close to asking a probing question. In this open letter, I will take a few lines to pose a few questions and make a few observations, some which beg for answers from your Holiness. I choose this medium because it is the only one available as I am unlikely to ever have the chance to speak with you personally.
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The Roaming Riot Flash Mob
Roaming Riot Flash Mob
Yesterday morning, May 6, 2012, shortly after Lynn and I popped by Calgary for a quick breakfast while enroute to Vancouver and Victoria, a flash mob, The Roaming Riot, invaded our Airport Pub Restaurant.
When spontaneous events like this appear on your doorstep, we have found the best thing to do is get in the spirit and join the festivities. As it turned out his group of men were enroute to Cabo San Lucas to celebrate the pending wedding of Jeff (photo centre, white hat, hanging on the shoulder of the guy with the t-shirt “Proud to be Something” or words to that effect).
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Camping Close to Home 2012, Inaugural Edition
View across the front yard of Leney Place. The story of the Gnome is posted in a footer.
It only took four guys, three chain saws, one chipper, two hours and a bit of bush whacking, to clear a spot as close to home as we could get for our first “Camping Close to Home” experience of the 2012 season. While driveway camping is “ok”, it just doesn’t feel the same as being surrounded by trees and a bit of grass especially when you look out from your bed at night. It struck me this spring that I could do better than the driveway, so checked out the angles, trees and shrubs to find the best use of our smaller property.
After two days work this past week, the trailer was moved in, fireplace set up, BBQ moved from the back deck and we were ‘good to go’ for our first BBQ of the season.
As those who live in Victoria know, this week-end really kicked in the feeling that summer is finally on its way. Along with our friends Linda, Bjorn, Sandy and Ron (Sandy and Ron over for the week-end from the Lower Mainland to visit the Island Boat Show in the Inner Harbour), we settled in for an evening of wine tasting, hamburgers, potato salad and corn on the cob. Given the weather we have had over the past few months, it was a treat to sit outside by the fire without feeling one was going to develop hypothermia with those frigid winds blowing in off the water.
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Holland America Cruise Ship Docking in Las Vegas? You Bet Your Booties.
Photo: Holland America was the first cruise ship company to take a crack at the lucrative Las Vegas market with planned trips by the newly refurbised MS Westerdam this coming fall. This was made possible by building a giant canal from San Diego to the heart of the strip in Sin City. As with the Panama Canal this was a major undertaking that will surely become a big hit with the cruise companies. When they complete the planned extension to Louisiana and the Gulf of Mexico in 2018, it will add a whole new dimension to the world of crusing.
Hello Friends and Friends of Friends.
A short description of the various stops and photographs from this
amazing adventure are now posted below.
(Scroll to “Narrative and Photo Gallery Links” Below)
L
Left to Right: Anne, Herb, Lynn, Esther, Garth, Patty, Doug, Ron, Sandy,
Gloria, Jim, Bjorn, Linda, Harold (Absent while on leave for a cruise
through the Canadian Rockies, Roslie and John, Lib and Larry)
For the full set of pictures of the Viva Las Vegas pre cruise party held at the McNeill’s
on September 16, 2012. LINK HERE
Looking for a little adventure? Thinking you might like to extend this coming summer by almost two weeks at the beginning of October? Well, think no more.
Join these fun loving couples: Esther and Garth Dunn, Patty and Doug Cassels, Linda and Bjorn Simonsen, Ann Skelcher and Herb Craig, Sandy and Ron Hall, Gloria and Jim Arnott, Lib and Larry Lohr, Roslie and John Gold (welcome Visitors from Australia), Lynn and Harold McNeill, as they climb aboard the recently renovated MS Westerdam for an historic cruise that will take us from Vancouver to San Diego (with a brief stop in Astoria, Oregon), then on to Las Vegas for our final 3 nights.
This 10 night package includes 4 nights cruising, hotels in San Diego (3 nights) and Las Vegas (3 nights), transfers, and flights from San Diego to Las Vegas and return to Vancouver.
Itinerary
30 September: Sail from Vancouver at 4:45 pm
1 October: Astoria, Oregon
2/3 October: At Sea
4-6 October: San Diego
7 October: Fly from San Diego to Las Vega
7-9 October: Las Vegas
10 October: Fly from Las Vegas to Vancouver
We will be staying at the Holiday Inn on the Bay in San Diego and the Excalibur ($10 more) in Las Vegas, (The Luxor and Harrahs are two alternate options you may choose from with this package for no additional charge).
Package price begins at $839.00 for an inside cabin (under $1200 with all taxes and fees) – based on double occupancy (other stateroom categories, as well as single and quad rates, are also available).
Patty and Doug have taken advantage of similar re-positioning cruises before and have found them to be of excellent value, with a great itinerary.
If you would like to join with us this fall for 11 days of fun and laughter, please contact Lynn as soon as possible. (With such a great deal, space is limited, – several other itineraries have already ‘Sold Out’.) $250 per person deposit is required to hold your space- refundable up to 90 days before departure.
Contact Lynn by phone, email or Facebook
Office:250 656-5441 Email: lynnmcneill@cruiseshipcenters.com
Harold Contact: harold@mcneillifestories.com
September 17, 2012: Special Bookings:
World Premier of the Musical “Allegiance” a new American Musical at the Old Globe Theatre in San Diego.
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Cathedrals, Abby’s and Castles 4/7
Entrance to the Benedictine Abbey in Melk, Austria (hdm).
When preparing stories for the Travelogue Section, a question often arises in discussion between Lynn and me as to how much “social comment” or “opinion”, would be appropriate within the context of the story.
For example, when travelling through Steyr or Linz, Austria, our travel guide told a story about a 15,000 seat church built in a nearby city back in the 16th or 17th Century. It took 70 years of sacrifice by the 20,000 residents of the city to pay for the structure as no fund assistance was forthcoming from the Monarchy (the Hapsburgs). It seemed to me that many of the poor would have dedicated their entire life toward the building of that single structure, a structure that would sit largely empty over the centuries.
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